Fashion Symbols with Aynura Maye

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Gaetano Castelli. Master of Set Design

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A Dreamer Who Makes Others Dream
A Tailor Who Tailors Sartorial Scenes

I find myself in front of a creative genius who moves from architecture to interior design to painting to set design. A true Italian intellectual. His name is familiar in every Italian household from the golden era of television for sleek and elegant set designs and has won Italy international awards for his set designs. For years San Remo Festival stage in Italy and Moulin Rouge in Paris have had his signature on the set designs. I was anxious for this talk, yet I found a very humble, down to earth counterpart. He is one of those rare types who manages to, regardless all the stones that life throws one’s way, keep that little curious kid alive inside. What was supposed to be a 15-minute talk easily stretched over an hour and I wished I had stolen more time of his.

Aynura: The purpose of this interview is to explore Italian excellence thru the stories of people who create it. Studying your work, I have a feeling that your passion and life work have been about creating persona, sort of character.

Gaetano: I would start with the question “who is a set-designer”. I’ve chosen this profession because it brings together all other artistic activities – painting, architecture, sculpture and many more. I am a set designer, I do scenography for theatre, TV. But I am also a painter. I’ve studied architecture. Eventually I didn’t pursue it as a profession as I started to work at television at a very young age. Set design is different from all these artistic activities. It is a lot about fantasy, ephemeral extravagance and energy that absorbs the audience. It all starts with a piece of paper, but it is about dreaming. I like to dream, and I like to make others dream. My task, I think is to astound just like the artists of the 17th century did.  All the works of Bernini, Borromini were scenographic, theatrical. I like baroque style, it’s synonyms with chiaroscuro (play of dark and light). Rome, with its churches and palaces is a baroque city, it has so much to be inspired from. In baroque style nothing is simple and plain. The frames, mouldings are dynamic. It emits energy.

Aynura: Were you born in Rome?

Gaetano: I am Roman, that is right. My father was Roman, and my mother was German. Living in the city of master pieces, one runs the risk of overlooking these beauties and great examples. We studied these master pieces in textbooks as schoolboys. But now I pass by Colosseum every day without giving much thought to it. I think I have been fortunate to live in this city. Growing up in a city of great examples of baroque style has probably done its part in the theatrical set designs that I create. As I quickly mentioned, Baroque is theatre, dynamism, motion, play of dark and light. Caravaggio is baroque. He is scenographical, yet there is truth, sense of reality in his works. Thru interplay of light and dark in his works he brought God close to humanity. Rococo is exaggeration, ornate, excess in embellishment and a lot of curves. The 1800s is characterized with return to neo-classism. In my small work, in set-designs, I’ve used all these styles, as well as renaissance style, specific colors, the pastel, warm colors of façade and interior that is typical to Roman and Venetian artists.

Aynura: Was there someone, a name who you looked up to, was your idol when you were little?

Gaetano: When I was a schoolboy, Rai used to run a family entertainment show on Saturday evenings. Always before the show I’d hear the name of the set-designer in the announcement part – set design by Cesarini di Scenagalia. I wanted to be Cesarina di Scenagalia. This dream took me to an artistic lyceum. It was a very difficult one to enter. My father wanted me to follow my uncle who used to work at a bank. He sent me to a different school, and I did everything to fail there. My mother knew that I laid my eyes on the artistic lyceum. Back in time she herself wanted to study there too.  But she was coming from a well-known family. For the class my mother’s family belonged to sending a daughter to a creative school with half naked dancers meant losing that daughter. My mother contented herself with playing piano but kept dreaming. She saw her dreams come true thru me. She silently sided with me, and I secretly took the entrance exam. My father’s intention wasn’t bad, he wanted me to have a secure job. Later I enrolled at architecture and set design courses as I wanted to be a set designer.

But with years my father came in terms with my choice. He was even proud of me. After he passed away, I found a folder where he kept all the articles published about me on newspapers, magazines. He used to cut out all of them to keep in a separate place.

I started to work very early. Always at Rai 1. First, I was assigned to Bolzano [north of Italy close to Austria] at 24 years old where everything was in German. It was a good opportunity to build understanding of the local culture. Later I returned to Rome to eventually be in charge of the set design of all entertainment programs of Rai starting from 1970s. The elegance of set design of those years is exceptional. Fantastico, Studio 1, Lunapark were among the most watched entertainment shows of that time. Each one of them had a distinct set design.

Looking back, I realize in search of novelty I’ve created some things that could have been predecessor of modern technologies. For example, the screen where I wrote Europa with Christmas light bulbs was probably predecessor of led wall. I used to manipulate the colors of those light bulbs thru computer by playing the degrees of red, green and blue – at 33.3 percent of all there the light becomes white. Obviously, I could play with different tones. Now neon works just the same way with the same tones of colors. I should have patented that invention. Unfortunately, I didn’t. Now for the set design of San Remo I include led wall for some parts. But back then I used to create it in my own way. Even when I use led walls, I have a supporting structure in place. It is not a good idea to totally rely on digital walls. I see myself as a tailor. I tailor design the set to the mood of the program, express this mood in a symbolic design as it is not a set design for movie, but for TV and theatre.

Aynura: You mean set design is a sort of sartorial work?

Gaetano: Yes. It is a sartorial work and I see myself as a tailor. Everything I create is about creating a world that is ephemeral. Caravaggio’s paintings, the style of 17th century,  interplay of light and shadow is my theatrical world. It is the style of my paintings. In a way, my work is to create sartorial personalities.

Aynura: There are different types of set designs as I understand, which one you think is your territory?

Gaetano: I am more oriented for television and theatre. As for the movie, I can do it, but I’ll say something that may sound absurd. Movie set-up has little space for imagination. I mean, movie making starts with a scrip, right? There is a guide for every little detail. Going thru the guide, I see what is in there. But for let’s say San Remo, the song contest there is no guide. This gives me more space for fantasy and creativity. Also gives space for metaphoric, symbolic expression. I prefer creative freedom in this sense.

On the other hand, at theatre how much the audience can experience depends on the type of tickets they buy. Usually, the front seats are considered the best. In fact, they are one of the most unlucky seats. One should always have the chin up moving left to right to have a decent view of actors, still wouldn’t see the legs because of the height of the stage. The best place is presidential seat, also called “Prince’s seat”, the spot where the spectator doesn’t have to move the head to watch. I create sets that are transmitted thru television screens. My work is to have the audience dream while watching from home. Back in time when I started the TV was a small box, it was a greater challenge. Now screens have grown larger, but the task is still the same.

Aynura: What was your first set design?

Gaetano: It was for Rai 1, for a cultural-journalistic debate program that was called “Diciamo la verità”. I was hired as a one-time assistant designer. Full-time set designers of Rai were not interested in journalistic and debate programs. Thus, I was called in. They needed a set design that could be assembled and dismantled every week to allow other programs to go on. I came up with a “globe” made with plastic and plasters that created an impression of starred skies. Back then Rai had a machine that could print anything plastic under vacuum. It had cost almost nothing and could be placed at one corner of the studio and do not interfere with other programs.

Aynura: Every set design was about inventing something new. You basically were an inventor. Your own most favorite set?

Gaetano: First, the Rockpolitik for Adriano Celentano. I have done all of his set designs and I think that was one of the most beautiful set designs. Besides it was an entertainment program with songs. This set designs brought me Rose d’Oro award, the festival that takes place the Montreux in Switzerland. It is an international awards festival in entertainment broadcasting and programming. Three programs – Al Paradise, Il Ribaltone and RockPolitik were nominated and all three were awarded in “international” category. Besides for its size RockPolitik was maybe the largest scene created in Europe.

Aynura: Does Italy still nominate programs to this festival?

Gaetano: No. Italy doesn’t have Italian programs anymore. They work with imported formats, for example Dancing with the Stars. But our set designers are sought after and employed all over the world outside Italy. These imported formats run the risk of flattening and loss of individual cultures and traditions. We run the risk of losing our DNA. Everything becomes cheap led wall which flattens fantasy. Set designer gets replaced by image director with a reduced work and result. Back then Academy of Arts didn’t have set design study in Europe. It was only us who took it seriously and advanced this area of study as a discipline.

Aynura: Back to the modern technology, what are your thoughts about the interaction of these two?

Gaetano: I have been in set design for more than 50 years so I think can say a word or two.

If I had had the tools and illumination equipment that are out there now when I had started, I would have created different things. But I started at a different time with different resources. When I started, little bulbs were used for lightning. Then came neon. At that time clean and elegant designs were what we looked after, especially in times of black and white screen. Then came the color screens. Also, a different sort of technology. My point is modern technology is a good novelty to enrich set-design, but we should be careful not to abuse its use. It should serve as a tool to create set design, but not to replace it totally, to enhance it, to not reduce it. We should be careful not to turn the set into a night club. If the design of the set requires, it is good to use projectors as a complementary detail. Today projectors and lights are taking over conceptual design. It has become a common practice to use only led walls. If led turns off, everything goes dark. If the whole stage is made of led screens, to me it’s death of set design. There is no depth. Always there should be images running in the background if not it all will go dark. I also use a lot of technology but always in a way that it serves to the structure of the set design that I am building. I feel that we are losing Italian art in our set design. You know Moulin Rouge? Italian art is what they want on their set. Also, in the US. Because Italians know how to bring together different forms of creativity such as architecture, sculpture and art to create theatrical scenery. If we do not keep this knowledge alive, we will be losing set-design workshops that are fundamental to this industry. Loss of set design means loss of costume design, craftswork. We need to avoid this loss at all costs. This is what our DNA is, it is losing our DNA.

Aynura: What would your advice be to the youth who want to pursue career in set design?

Gaetano: First of all, follow your passion. Secondly, stay up to date, know what is happening in the sector. Specifically, set design that is not related to theatre only anymore, there is cinema, video, television which are probably more important now. Moreover, set design is not about designing a scene, it is about finding solutions to what are beyond set design, such as interior design, sculpting, architectural issues. Eventually, one tries his hand at many things, it is a journey. For example, I’ve designed hotel foyers, restaurants in Rome, gardens in Albania etc. Enthusiasm, experience and keeping up with time are fundamental for success. Traveling, exposure, and having cultural sensibility is also very important for this profession.

Aynura: You’ve worked with legends, give me some names.

Gaetano: From internationals for example, Liza Minnelli. I’ve done all concerts of Pavarotti. Chelentano, Gigi Proietti, Benini and so many more. I was responsible for all of the entertainment programs of Rai 1. People used to watch us for good content and matching elegant set design. Back then the most important show was on Saturday evening with 20-22 million viewers. I worked with the best costume designers, musicians to put out a program that had quality content and matching set design. They were author programs, each program used to carry signature of a handful professionals. That was a great responsibility, there was sense of ownership for each detail of the programs.

Aynura: What would be your advice for young, aspiring nations like mine? How could these young nations benefit from the Made in Italy know how and excellence?

Gaetano: Before everything else, workshops. Employ an expert or two from Italy and headhunt young talents of your country to practice in these workshops to restore the DNA of your culture. Learn techniques for painting, design, architecture along the way. Create internally to avoid importing from outside. That would lay a good foundation. Otherwise, one depends too much on external capacity. It becomes very costly, also runs the risk of losing one’s own cultural flavor. The external expert needs to live there to understand and feel the culture. Try to avoid one-time service providers. Design should be relatable to the local people. Disciplines such as architecture, sculpture, restoration etc. are interesting fields to study. But set design is interplay of all of these and many other artistic and creative activities. The objective should be to become self-sufficient in bringing together artistic and creative activities of one’s own and modernize it.

From bank counter to the stage of La Scala. The journey of 10 years.

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­When I first talked to him, I had a feeling that we had known each other for years. With his laid back air, relaxed manners and whimsical comments soon I forgot that we were new acquaintances and let my guards off. I guess I had made one or more out of place jokes that I wish I hadn’t. When I started this series, apparently he was one of the first people I contacted and we did the interview from distance. I discovered a modest and hard-working personality beyond that carefree and playful layer that was hard to see through when we met in person. During the interview, over and over I noticed him avoid talking about his accomplishments, instead focus on what he needed to do (perhaps, the secret of his success is this mindset). Folks, the guest of the Galosh, Zhiguli series for the month of January is Azer Zada, the first Azerbaijani graduate of the La Scala Academy in Milan, Honored Artist of Azerbaijan, who left everything at the age of 19 to pursue his dream to become a professional opera singer.

Check out his site at www.azerzada.com

Read here the original interview in Azerbaijani

Azer, when we met last it was the summer of 2021 at the Arena di Verona, the 150th anniversary of the Aida Opera. You performed Radames under the direction of already living legend conductor Riccardo Muti. I remember I was so consumed during the whole play trying not to miss a word coming from Radames. I was just proud of you. No doubt, there is a lot of sweat and blood behind this success. How did you get invited to such a prestigious event? What did it mean for your career?

When I received this offer, I was over the clouds. He is such an influential conductor that every musician, every opera singer would want to work with him. It’s great to work with him. I will be performing with him again in mid-December [of 2021], I’m very much looking forward to it. Muti first heard me when I was performing in Aida in Ravenna. He wasn’t conducting but came to the rehearsals and listened to us. Our first acquaintance started there. Then I was invited to a concert in Ravenna and performed with him. Afterwards he invited me to the Arena di Verona. Of course, this was a very important moment for my career and I am grateful to him for this.

Performing on a huge amphitheatre as famous as it is sounds very exciting, yet somehow nerve racking too. All eyes are on you. Everyone else aside, you have your own expectations from yourself.

Of course, the adrenaline is very high. Immense amount of responsibility too. Especially, if it is season’s opening concert at the Arena. All the eyes are on you. There is also a reality. You are a foreigner, but you should not sound like a foreigner. I actually spend a lot of time on it and I must say I really enjoy this work, the rehearsal process itself. But on the day of the play there is a lot of adrenaline and nervousness. Maybe that’s why I picked this career. Good sleep before the performance is also important for me.

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CY7GU9FhZnB/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link

Let’s to go back to the beginning. How did it all start?

I was born into a family of musicians, there was always music in our house, especially classical music. That’s why I grew up surrounded by music, musicians and artists. But I didn’t practice it until very late, at least professionally even though I had a desire for music since childhood. Regardless, I think when I started, I already started with something. The music was everywhere, I had developed an ear for it, involuntarily accumulated knowledge. One day I made this radical decision to quit my job and follow my passion. Then I was 19 years old working in a bank. Thus everything started. I am grateful to honored artist professor Huseyn Aliyev for the guidance in that early period. When I am in Baku we meet, he checks my voice. He is my first teacher, will always remain so and our relations mean a lot to me. As I said, I started at the age of 19 and before turning 21 I left for Italy. First I studied in Osimo, took some master classes. Since 2014 I live in Milan and I am a graduate of La Scala Academy.

So, you didn’t sing until you were 19 years old. One day you said “That is it, singing is my call!” Is that how did it happen? How did people react? Your family?

Yes, I started when I was 19, didn’t perform before that. At first, the reaction was not very good, even from my father [distinguished musician himself]. Because he didn’t know my voice and capacity. But upon hearing he gave his consent and his blessings. I am grateful to him for that.

It sounds like a story from an inspirational storybook – at the age of 19, one day you leave everything behind to pursue your dream of being a professional tenor. Shortly after you even leave your family behind. Wasn’t it hard?

Of course it was. I miss my family. 28th [January] is 70th anniversary of my father. I can’t be with him on this day because of work. There are new debuts, I need to rehearse. My family understands me, and I am grateful for that. I miss him, my family, my hometown and my country very much.

Why Italy?

You know that Italy is home to opera. I started in Osimo, took master classes in Italy and Spain. Then I decided to try myself at La Scala Academy in Milan. Admission exams were very difficult which shouldn’t be surprise as it is one of the best schools out there in the field. My student years were also wonderful here. During those years I always felt the support of our state. This of course, is encouraging. I have been living in Milan since 2014.

When did you feel that your career took off?

Frankly I don’t focus on advancing my career. Rather I work on improving my voice and performance. Of course I try to keep an eye over the general picture but the main focus is on my voice.

How do you work on the quality of your voice?

Speaking in general, our voice is our instrument, and it is individual for everybody. A performer, especially, an opera singer must know his tone, voice and understand which repertoire is good for his voice. It is not an easy task. Things can change with time – ageing, bodily changes, all sorts of changes affect vocal cords. It is a very delicate instrument. For us, protecting this instrument is very important too.

Where was your first performance and did you later return to the same stage in the lead role?

My first performance was at the Opera and Ballet Theater [Baku, Azerbaija], it was a small role in Carmen. I will perform there again in May again in Carmen. This time I will be in the lead role. Of course this is a moment of pride. My first major role there was in the opera L’elisir d’amore, in the role of Nemorino. In March this year I will perform that role again there. I am very excited.

Any plans about joining contests? Also is there a stage where you’re eyeing to perform?

My biggest dream is to do what I love. I think competitions and contests would probably be more suitable for younger people, I am already 31 years old. As for the stage I have been on many stages, including many concerts at La Scala, Bolshoi Theather, Arena. Have performed a duet from Othello, performed in Tosca. I would like to perform at the Metropolitan Opera in New York. I hope it will happen too. I think the most important thing is to focus on self-growth.

You’ve performed a lot of roles but you mentioned Othello and Tosca. Is there a reason?

I perform Tosca a lot in Italy, Russia, France and other countries, in the role of Cavaradossi. As for Othello, I think it takes years of experience to convey the psychological state of this character, the turbulent state of his soul. It is not about comprehension or understanding, I think it requires life experience. This opera has a very complex libretto. I hope that in the next ten years I will feel ready for this role.

Let’s switch the focus onto Azerbaijan. You receive invitations to perform. In what ways, always in your area of profession, you think the country may benefit from Italian art and music, Made in Italy know-how?

I receive many invitations and lately have performed there quite often. Playing at my home country is fulfilling. My last performance was in Aida there. While I was there, I gave a master class to young performers. I think, supporting them through information is important. Being informed makes difference when one performs. Intelligence is palpable.

Is there a specific project in mind that you’d like to realize?

I think a lot of work can be done, a lot of projects, ideas. In my opinion, we need to think about the quality first. If there is no quality, the end result may seem uninteresting. Especially when it comes to opera and classical music. You can open an opera studio or inaugurate an academy, these are all great initiatives. But the most important thing is quality. This is my idea – focus on the quality first.

Do these two cultures have similar operas? Have you ever considered synthesizing an opera from both sides?

Frankly I think these two cultures do not have similar operas and this is normal. However, the music of Fikret Amirov’s Sevil opera and Koroglu opera, especially Sevil opera is close to European music and can be easily performed on European stage. I think it would generate interest in any part of the world. Because the theme is very relevant, and the music is very beautiful. In general, our music is very beautiful and rich. It would be great to bring this music to the world stage.

What is your lessons learnt that you’d advise to Azerbaijani youths who want to pursue their dreams like you?

I think first comes the mental state. I’d say just feel calm. A lot depends on our mental state. Success comes when we manage to direct our energy in the right direction. It is very important to work on personal growth. Thinking too highly of one’s own skills stalls growth. One should be hungry to know more and grow. Also it is important to have a good grip of one’s own reality. Being honest with ourselves is essential. When a person is sincere with himself and admits to that he does not know that is where learning begins.

Read here the original interview in Azerbaijani.

Dust of Time

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Store: Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time)
Address: Via del Moro, 59, Rome (Trastevere)
Online Store: www.polvereditempo.it
Artisan: Adrian Anibal Rodriguez
Adrian Anibal Rodriguez, artigiano and the owner of the workshop store Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time) in Rome. Foto: Luca Fantini, 2021

It is that time of the year. And the AQA Series is here for you with a story of a store where everything is about TIME.

Dust of Time… Or as it says in Italian, Polvere di Tempo. This little, cozy shop offers as much nostalgic and warm setting as its name suggests. The green doors, with the Christmas lights on at the time when I visited added a special magical air. Located in a very Roman neighborhood, Trastevere, on one of the winding narrow cobblestone alleys, this workshop store is a must-see place in Rome.

Adrian, the architect artisan and the owner is originally from Argentina. A true guardian of the ancient tools for measuring time. The first time I stepped into the “Dust of Time”, my impression of him was of a very pleasant person who was extremely humble towards all his clients and whoever walked in. Then we talked. I explained to him why I am there. God, I discovered a true philosopher. His knowledge and perception of time were so interesting, so mind invigorating, I forgot for what I was there and we dove into a stimulating, long talk about the phenomenon of time and so many other things. I’ll leave the conversation here for you to indulge.

In the meanwhile, check out his online store where you’ll find one of a kind quality, hand-made tools for measuring time – from hourglasses of different sizes to sundials, compasses and many other curious items that would make a wonderful holiday gift or a beautiful décor item for home – www.polvereditempo.it

Enjoy the story of his time stopping store. The story is up on the my Instagram account.

Enjoy xx

Adrian, I found about you and the store “Dust of Time” on Google. I knew that the whole shop was about measuring time. But when I entered the store, the time stopped. It was an interesting feeling. Usually, looking at the time pass gives us anxiety or sense of urgency. But here observing how time passes in a time-measuring object, hourglass, was kind of pleasing, calming. How did you come up with the idea of choosing this path, dedicating yourself to creating these curious objects?

In fact, everything started by a mere chance. By profession I am an architect. I used to work for a big company. Yet I didn’t really like that life, I wasn’t comfortable. My grandfather used to say, it is better to be mouse’s head than lion’s tail. Working with people who were building big villas and houses was not to my liking. I am a very critical person. To cut it short, in that period, when I was about to give a second thought to my profession, a friend of mine gave me a sundial as a gift.

Was it happening in Argentina?

This was happening in Italy. I’ll skip the part of my life in Argentina up until I was 29, when I decided to move to Italy. I have always been good with handwork, a general tendency coming from family. At such a point in my life, a friend of mine gave me a sundial. Until then, I have never had an exposure to the world of measuring time. As many others, I used to observe time either on watch or over wrinkles. With this gift I leaped into the world of measuring time. Gradually, I started to build a sundial, a wall sundial, which is also vulgarly called Le Meridiane. Later, I tried my hand at making clock candles for monks.

Look, we totally ignore how time was measured in ancient times. We do not have that memory. Our memory starts with the mechanical watches. I mean, mechanical watches themselves are very ancient, the first one being invented around 1300s. But it was a curious object not because of its accuracy, but because how it worked. It wasn’t particularly accurate. Sundials were used during the day and nocturnal at night to determine time by the position of the stars. Hourglasses obviously were a complementary instrument in times when there was no sun or it was cloudy. As a matter of fact, hourglass is not a clock. they are chronometers, they are designed to measure passage of time. As a German philosopher Ernst Jung said, the mechanical watches do not measure time, but fabricate time, because they are totally different from what the real time is.  

Time is a philosophical phenomenon, I think. Just think, in times of hardship, difficulty and anxiety, time never passes. On the contrary, in time of happiness and joy, we do not know how time flies away. That means, time it a relative phenomenon, yes, also a scientific measurement, but as well relative. So, slowly, I started to enter this world. Also, I was young, you know, when one is young, one is not conscious of the value of time, but the elderly are, as the end is drawing close. I smoke pipe and in the world of pipe smokers, the measurement of time is the length of one pipe. What I mean is there are endless ways to measure time.

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021

So, when ventured into this work, I started with sundials, then moved on to clock candles for monks to measure time at night. In general, all these tools belonged to aristocracy, or borghese. Farmers planned their day around the sun. I think the first phenomenon that made mankind suspect of time was shadow. Because, mankind realized that from the rise of sun until sunset, with the movement and gradient of the sun, the shadow moves and changes. And this was the first reference point in the birth of objects that measure time. This is how sundial works.

Then came synchronization. If we put the whole process in perspective, it was until when someone has decided to let’s say synchronize time in two separate points, and this is, probably, how portable measurement tools came into picture. Above all, I think, it was necessary also during the wars. In times of attack from different sides, calculating time in terms of the position of shadow wouldn’t do the job. Isn’t is amazing how wars along the history found their way in and changed it all.

Measuring time can never be perfected, right? First everything started on empirical experience, then mathematical calculations followed. These are all the topics that interest me and so I dedicated myself to this craft. I try my hand in making different types of watches and work on improving my skills.

One day, I discovered hourglass, which is not a clock, but is a tool to measure passage of time. Hourglass is an incredible tool. That is the only tool where the time is tangible, one can touch time. The sand in the upper bulb is the future, the neck is present and the sand in the lower bulb is the past. It is a practical tool too. But the first version that was called clepsydra, was made of water. So, it was a water clock. Not in this exact form, different sizes of vessels filled with water were used to measure the passage of time. What we call clessidra (hourglass) now is in fact clepsamia, a sand tool.

Where was the clessidra born?

There is no knowledge on the exact place that it was created. I suspect, it was ancient Greece. But as water clock. The version we create now, the sand clessidra is not very ancient. I assume it was in Babylonia, Persia etc. My researches didn’t result with a specific information on that, I mean the water clock is really, really ancient.

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021

What time the tools that you make date back to?

The tools that I make date back to 1700s, they are portable models that were first made in Nurnberg. I decided to produce portable objects, for obvious reason, because I had to make my living out of this too. This craft was to be my passion and living. It needed to be practical. But no, wait, even before that I made shepherd’s stick, which is also a tool for measuring time according to the position of the sun.

Another topic is that the mechanical hour that we use today is quite disconnected from the solar hour. Sometimes there is a difference of as much as an hour in these two times. This discrepancy is also due to the need to facilitate the issue of time. For example, the countries such as the US or Russia extend across couple of time zones. To facilitate, organize and avoid confusion as much as possible, the lines of zones do not run exactly along the solar times, they are adjusted. But if we check time against the real solar time, we’ll observe discrepancy. When you see a note – real local time – that is astrological time.

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021

Listening to you, someone that is as profound and humble as you are, my thoughts wander. The qualities that are required for this work, namely, a lot of attention, concentration, precision – are the qualities of intense mediation practiced to elevate the spirit.

Totally. The artisan work is a very creative work, it is kind of an artistic work. I always say this: the difference between artist and artisan is that artisan creates an artwork that is also a practical product. Usually, an artwork doesn’t have to have a practical use. Also, there are so many artisanal works that with the passage of time have garnered the value of an artwork. For me, artist is the one who is always in search of ways of expression. Artisanal work with modernization has lost a lot of value. Maybe, it garners the value it deserves with time. For example, a furniture of the 17th century is considered an artwork and carries a value of an artwork today. In this sense, this is a very complicated topic to elaborate. But in general, I’d say the difference between an artist and an artisan is that the artisan makes a product that has a practical use in that moment in time.

Many times, I wonder a lot about why we do the things that we do. What do you think, if you hadn’t moved from Argentina to Italy, would you have dedicated yourself to this craft?

Nobody knows, nobody can answer to that question. Let’s say you take a thousand white sticks and one red one and drop them from height. Do you think, the red stick will always fall into the same spot? No, it will always fall into a different place. Human life is like that too, there is a possibility for total change in every instant. That’s why, I do not know. In Argentina there is a saying – you’d be what you are meant to be or you’d be nobody. The saying alludes to a pre-determined destiny. But is there a thing called destiny? I do not know. I am a type who doubts everything. There is a beautiful saying – Doubt is the privilege of the secure. The insecure people can’t permit space for doubt.

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021

Then fear fills in that space…

Right. Now, there are people that need political and ideological position. Why? Because, such position gives a sense of certainty. The ones that are afraid of insecurity and can’t afford doubt as it opens space for insecurity, adopt such positions that are supported by ideology or philosophy. I have always been agnostic, come from a family that has been non-religious already for three generations. I’ve raised my kids in this spirit as well – one should submit to insecurity, continuous research of the truth.

But isn’t it difficult to live without firm points?

Absolutely. Of course. The truth is a lie in which one believes. But who is in power to say what is the Truth.

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021

Could this be the reason why you dedicated yourself to a profession that requires so much precision? Your need to search and understand?

I do not know. You know, there is a saying – I know that I do not know, I do not remember which philosopher said this, I don’t have a memory. If I had one, that would have been a strange thing. My point is, the more one learns, the more one understands that doesn’t know a thing – then one adds “maybe”, “might” to everything one says. With such uncertainty, of course, life becomes uncomfortable. Because, being grounded is really comfortable, it brings tranquility. I do not know, I am of doubt and for doubt. I think it is better this way, less comfortable, but better. In fact, this approach of questioning everything has taken me on a path, in respect to time, to doubt and question it too. And it really opens up one’s mind and learn things that wouldn’t have been possible without such attitude.

What your advice would be for the coming generations?

This is a difficult one. For ages, the maximum human speed has been that of a horse. We’ve tried and trained different animals for this, elephants let’s say and the last one has been horse. But then a moment came in history – with the steam engines – the velocity jumped. The increase is not mathematical increase any more, but a geometrical one. It is geometrically exponential. We’ve reached to a point, it feels like, we’ve lost the control over our world, before it was us controlling, now it feels like it’s machines in charge. With the climate urgency and the sort of unimaginable economic crisis that we’re heading, this is a difficult question. But I wouldn’t want the youth to grow up with pessimistic thoughts about the future.  

We started this series of interviews to learn about the excellence of Made in Italy. But we both are kind of strangers. I look with foreign eyes and want to understand what is at the core of this excellence. We do not want to learn from the experience of big industries and businesses, we’d like to learn from people that do the handwork behind, are on top of all and pays attention to all the details along the process.

I think, you’ve picked the right country to learn about the sense of quality and artisan work. 

Polvere di Tempo (Dust of Time). Store: Rome, Photo: Luca Fantini, 2021